Tag Archives: New York City

Jacob Cohen

Jacob Cohen was recorded in the June 10, 1850 issue of the New York Daily Tribune (New York, New York).  Destroying Daguerreotypes.—A young man named James H. Tucker, was taken into custody yesterday, charged with having, while intoxicated, entered the premises of Jacob Cohen, of 54 Canal –st. and maliciously destroying about $50 worth of daguerreotypes.  He was held to answer the charge.

Jacob Cohen is not recorded in other photographic directories.  Jacob is not listed as a daguerreotypist in the 1850 New York City Directory, resident section.  John Craig list a James Cohen at 54 Canal Street, New York from 1849-1851.  The question, is Jacob a typo in the June 10, 1850 New York Daily Tribune’s issue or is he something else?

J. S. Clarke

N. D.                 Address Unknown, New York, New York.                                                                            N. D.                 Address Unknown, New Orleans, Louisiana.                                                            1847                Rooms in Mr. China’s Hotel, Sumterville, South Carolina.                                  1850                Address Unknown, Sumterville, South Carolina.                                                1850                Rooms in Mr. China’s Hotel, Sumterville, South Carolina.

J. S. Clarke was listed in an advertisement that ran from February 10 to 17, 1847 in The Sumter Banner (Sumterville, South Carolina). Color Daguerreotype Likenesses. The subscriber would respectfully inform the ladies and Gentlemen of Sumterville and vicinity, that he has taken rooms in Mr. China’s Hotel for a few days and will be happy to have all call and examine specimens whether they intend sitting or not.  After having experience in New York and New Orleans he does not hesitate to warrant his Likenesses equal to any taken in the Union.

No person will be required to take a picture after sitting if it does not give satisfaction.  Portraits copied correctly; Likenesses taken in clear, cloudy, or rainy weather.  Instructions in the Art given and apparatus furnished.  J. C. Clarke.

On February 27, 1850 Clarke was recorded in an announcement in The Sumter Banner (Sumterville, South Carolina).  Daguerreotypist.  Mr. J. S. Clarke is now in this place taking Daguerreotype Miniatures; and his presence affords an opportunity to those who are desirous of obtaining miniatures of themselves or friends of so doing.  Mr. Clarke’s miniatures, which we have seen him take, as well as those which he has on hand, are well executed.

Mr. Clarke has removed his rooms to Mr. China’s Hotel as his former location was found too damp for the purpose of his art.

J. S. Clark does not appear in any photographic directories.

Peter G. Clark

1850                Address Unknown, [Boston], Massachusetts.[1]                                                1851                247 Washington Street, Boston, Massachusetts.[2]                                                      1851-1852     36 Washington Street, Boston, Massachusetts.[3]                                                      1852-1854      in San Francisco, California.[4]                                                                          1853                Address Unknown, Boston, Massachusetts.[1]                                                  1854                103 Washington Street, Boston, Massachusetts.[3]                                                    1854-1856      in New York City.[4]                                                                                                1855                158 Bowery, New York, New York.[5]                                                                      1857                Lower Great George Street, Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada.[4]  1859-1862      in San Francisco, California.[4]

Peter G. Clark first appeared in the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association Report for September 1850.  He exhibited daguerreotypes at the sixth exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association, no award was given.

Reported on December 20, 1851 in The Carpet Bag (Boston, Massachusetts). A Present.—We have received from the artist, Mr. P. G. Clark, No. 247 Washington street, an elegant and faithful likeness of Mrs. H. M. Stephens, of this city, and we take pleasure in exhibiting the treasure to our many visitors. [We have an adjourned promise of the transcript of another fair face from the East—“down east,”—when the “sometimes operator” shall get back.] Of course we are proud of it, and of course we thank the donor, and commend him to the notice of that public which always patronizes those who favor the printers.

Reported in the September 1853 report of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association.  Peter G. Clark exhibited daguerreotypes at the sixth exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association. Award a bronze medal for daguerreotype views of California.

Reported in an advertisement on December 22, 1855 in the New York Daily Tribune (New York, New York). Handsome Ladies!—Pictures Taken Gratis!—The time fixed for the opening of Barnum’s Gallery Of Beauty has been extended for a short period $20,000 will be expended in Premiums to the 100 handsomest Ladies and for painting their portraits.  Highest prize $1,000.  For particulars see circulars at the Museum.  Daguerreotypes for this Gallery will be taken free of all expense to the sitter, if application be made to them immediately, by all the principal artists in the United States, including the following superior Daguerreotypist in the City of New York.

J. Gurney, No. 489 Broadway; M. M. Lawrence, No. 831 Broadway; S. Root, No. 363 Broadway; Meade Brothers, No. 233 Broadway; R. Anson, No. 589 Broadway; Beckers & Piard, No. 264 Broadway; M. H. Kimball, No. 407 Broadway; J. W. Thompson, No. 315 Broadway, and 182 Fulton-st, Brooklyn; M. Kerston, No. 421 Broadway, cor. of canal; P. Welling, Cor. of Bleecker and Carmine-sts; P. G. Clark, No. 156 Bowery; Jullus Brill, No. 204 Chatham-st; R. A. Lewis, No. 142 Chatham Square.

Peter G. Clark is known see the following publications for more information Pioneer Photographers of the Far West, A Biographical Dictionary 1840-1865Craig’s Daguerreian Registry, A Directory of Massachusetts Photographers 1839-1900.

The new Information, is the fact that he showed at the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association in 1850 and in 1853, the advertisement in the Carpet Bag newspaper with the 247 Washington Street address, and the December 22, 1855 New York Daily Tribune advertisement with address of 156 Bowery, New York.

[1] Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association records, 1850 & 1853.                                        [2] The Carpet Bag (newspaper).                                                                                                                        [3] Directory of Massachusetts Photographers 1839-1900.                                                                          [4] Pioneer Photographers of the Far West.                                                                                                        [5] New York Daily Tribune (newspaper).

Edwin Church

1853                Address Unknown, New York, New York.                                                                          1853-1854     59 College Street, Nashville, Tennessee.

Edwin Church was recorded first in an announcement in the Nashville Union and American (Nashville, Tennessee) on October 16, 1853.  Col. Dobyns, the extensive Daguerreotypist of Dobyns & Yearout, 59 College Street, who has just returned from his New York establishment, has several improvements which will be introduced in a few days.  We understand that the celebrated artists E. Church, so long and favorably known as one of the best in the city of New York, came out with the Col. For the purpose of remaining permanently in that gallery.  If he surpasses Yearout’s pictures, we should say Nashville will have something to be proud of.  We shall see what we shall see.

An advertisement appeared on September 3 and ran until December 3, 1854 in the same paper. Notice.—The Copartnership heretofore existing under the firm of Dobyns & Church and Dobyns & Co., is dissolved.  No one is authorized to collect debts of the concern but Mr. J. T. Yearout.T. J. Dobyns.

 While this is not new information it does clarify and add to John Craig’s entry for Church in Craig’s Daguerreian Registry.

B. A. & Washington W. Chilton

N. D.                   Address Unknown, New York, New York.                                                                        1841-1842       269 King Street, Charleston, South Carolina.[1]                                                              1842                   Rooms at Mr. Starke’s Hotel, Camden, South Carolina.

B. A. & Washington W. Chilton were recorded in two announcements and one advertisement in The Camden Journal (Camden, South Carolina.) The first announcement appeared on March 9, 1842. Miniatures.  By reference to our advertising columns, it will be seen that the Messrs. Chilton propose furnishing those of our citizens who may desire it, with facsimile of themselves.  We have seen some specimens, exhibiting the perfection to which the art has been carried, and although they are not very pretty specimens, they are surprisingly exact likenesses.  Those of our friends, therefore, who may desire to possess a perfect counterpart of themselves, have now the opportunity of doing so.  We want them beforehand, however, not to fall out with the artist, if he should not, at the same time be able to make handsome picture, and a perfect likeness—the latter may be relied on.

The advertisement ran from March 9 to 30, 1842 in The Camden Journal (Camden, South Carolina.)  Daguerreotype Miniatures.  The Ladies and Gentlemen of Camden are respectfully informed that the Subscribers, late of New York City, have fitted up rooms at Mr. Starke’s Hotel, and will remain until the first of April, for the purpose of taking Miniature Likenesses, after the manner of M. Daguerre, of Paris.  The process of taking Miniatures in the above manner has been brought to such a state of perfection that the powerful rays of the sun, heretofore so necessary in the operation, have been entirely dispensed with, and likenesses can consequently, be taken in any kind of weather, with perfect accuracy, occupying the time of the sitter but a few seconds.  Specimens can be seen at Mr. McKain’s Drug Store, and at the Subscribers’ rooms.  Office hours from 9 A. M., to 4 P. M. every day.

The second announcement appeared on March 16, 1842 in the same newspaper.  Messrs. Chilton are prepared to take Daguerreotype likenesses at their room at Mr. Starke’s Hotel.  As their stay in Camden, is limited to the first of April those who wish to have their miniatures taken, would do well to avail themselves of the present opportunity.

[1] Information from Craig’s Daguerreian Registry.


1846-1847       Pennsylvania Avenue, next door to the U. S. Hotel, District of Columbia.

There are two listings for Chase with no first name attached to the advertisements or announcements in Washington, D. C.  The first instances cover 1846 to 1847, in which three announcements and two advertisements appear (which will be referred as Chase.1.)  The second occurrences was in 1851, in which two advertisements and three announcements appear (referred to as Chase.2.)  It is possible that this same person, but at this time it would be only speculation to suggest that.

Chase.1 was recorded in an advertisement in The Daily Union (Washington, D. C.) on December 19 and ran until February 8, 1846.  Van Loan & Chase, From New York And Philadelphia.  Daguerreotype Rooms.  Admittance free.  Next door to the United States Hotel.  Pictures taken in any kind of weather, clear, cloudy, or rainy, from 9 o’clock, a. m., till 5 o’clock, p. m.

The first announcement appeared on December 31, 1846 in The Daily Union.  We would call the attention of citizens and strangers to the daguerreotype establishment of Messrs. Van Loan & Chase, next door to the United States Hotel.

The second advertisement appeared on April 30 and ran until June 1, 1847 in The National Whig.  (Washington, D. C.)            Van Loan & Chase, From New York And Philadelphia.  Daguerreotype Rooms.  Admittance Fee—next door to the U. S. Hotel.  Pictures taken in any kind of weather, clear, cloudy, or rainy, from 9 o’clock, a. m. till 5 o’clock p. m..

The second announcement appears on June 9, 1847 in The National Whig (Washington, D. C.)  Washington As It Is.  June, 1847, Pennsylvania Avenue.  No. II.

Crossing Third street, westwardly…Next Door westward of the United States Hotel is a spacious and lofty building belonging to John Donoho, at present partly occupied by Van Loan & Chase’s admirable Daguerrean rooms.

The third announcement appeared on September 28, 1847 in The Daily Union (Washington, D.C.)  We are indebted to Messrs. Brooke, Shillington, & Co., of this city, for a “View of the Battle of Buena Vista,” published by H. R. Robinson….We are also presented with a fine lithographic portrait of Col. Charles May, from a daguerreotype of Van Loan & Co., of this city.  This is also published by Mr. Robinson of New York….

Chase does not appear in other photographic directories as being active in Washington, D. C. nor does Van Loan.  In the first advertisement that announces the partnership of Van Loan & Chase it states that they are from New York and Philadelphia.  Looking at the various photographic directories and histories this would suggest that Van Loan is from New York and Chase from Philadelphia this would mean that the partnership is Matthew D. Van Loan & Theodore L Chase.


1851                Rooms at the Odeon, Washington, D. C.

Chase.2 appeared in the Washington, D. C. newspapers in an advertisement that ran from April 8 to 14, 1851 in the American Telegraph.  Daguerreotypes Equal to any in the city are taken at the Odeon at the lowest prices.  Entire Satisfaction given, or no charge.

The first of three announcements appeared on April 15, 1851 in the American Telegraph.  Can’t Be Beat!  The great number of Daguerreotypes taken at Chase’s Gallery at the Odeon, to be sent to England and other parts of Europe, is an evidence of the excellency of the work done at this Gallery.

The second announcement appeared on April 22, 1851 in the American Telegraph.  Everybody Says—and what everybody says must be true—that the Daguerreotypes now produced at the Odeon are unsurpassed by any in the city and then the prices are lower than any other Gallery.

The third announcement appeared on April 27, 1851 also in the American Telegraph.  At The Odeon May be seen an admirable and lifelike Likeness of the President, where, also, you can be accommodated with a beautiful Daguerreotype, at a very low price.

The second advertisement appeared on May 30 and ran until June 6, 1851 again in the American Telegraph.  Can’t Be Beat.—The Daguerreotypes taken at the Odeon, in execution and truthfulness, are inferior to none in the city; while the price is much lower than at most other Galleries.

There is the possibility that Chase.1 and Chase.2 are the same person based on the activity being in Washington, D. C.  The problem is that there is no collaborating information two tie the two together and John Craig does not list him in Craig’s Daguerreian Registry nor is he listed in Laurie Baty’s unpublished Directory of D. C. Photographers.


William H. Chalmers

1853-1861       Post Office Corner, Augusta, Georgia.[1]                                                                            1856                   Address Unknown, New York, New York.1                                                                          1856                   Address Unknown, Edgefield, South Carolina.                                                                  1858                   over Burpee’s Carriage Shop, opposite the Bank, Athens, Georgia.1  

William H. Chalmers was listed in four advertisements in the Edgefield Advertiser (Edgefield, South Carolina.)  The first three are when he was in partnership with John Leigh as Leigh & Chalmers.  The first advertisement ran from October 1, to November 5, 1856.  Ambrotypes!  Those Beautiful and Imperishable Pictures can be had at John Leigh’s Office.  They are superior in Brilliancy, depth of tone and finish to any ever offered in this community.  Leigh & Chalmers.  Edgefield, Sept. 30, 1856.

The second ran from October 1 to December 31, 1856.  Photographs.  This beautiful style of Picture so popular in both this country and Europe, can be had at Leigh & Chalmers’ Gallery, Augusta, Ga.  Persons having Daguerreotypes of themselves or friends can have them photographed from life-size to the smallest miniature.                                                                Leigh & Chalmers.  Augusta, Sept. 30, 1856.

The third advertisement ran on March 4, 1857.  Photograph of Hon. P. S. Brooks.  Messrs. Leigh & Chalmers, of Augusta, have kindly forwarded to us a photograph likeness of our lamented Brooks, for which we return then thanks.  It is just the thing we were endeavoring to procure and is a most acceptable gift.  The likeness is striking and the execution excellent.  As there are very many citizens of Edgefield who would be glad to have a faithful portrait of their late beloved representative, we would suggest to them that, for only $4, they can procure such an one from Messrs. Leigh & Chalmers.  Mr. Leigh brought up a hundred copies the other day, but they are going off very rapidly.  Those who have engaged them should apply early; and those who have not done so, can now make the arrangement with Mr. L., who is at this place for the present.

The fourth advertisement was for William H. Chalmers alone and ran from December 8 to 29, 1858 in the Edgefield Advertiser (Edgefield, South Carolina.)  Ambrotypes For Fifty Cts. At The Chalmers’ Gallery, Post Office Corner, Augusta, Geo.  Wm. H. Chalmers, the well-known and successful Ambrotypist, is still furnishing pictures in the same Beautiful And Life-Like Style, that was so much admired last season, for the Low Price of 50 Cts. and upwards, According to the size and style of case.  The Gallery having a Mammoth Sky-Light and Side-Light combined, together with Instruments of the latest and most approved kinds, Pictures can be taken at all hours of the day, and as well in cloudy weather as in clear.

Having secured the services of several of the Best Operators in the United States, Likenesses will in all cases be Perfect or no charge.  Each Picture will be handsomely colored by an experienced Artist, and warranted not to fade.

The Public are invited to call and examine the large collection of Ambrotypes, Daguerreotypes, Melainotypes, Photographs, Paintings, &c., on exhibition.  Entrance to Gallery on door above the Post Office.

N. B. Instructions given in the Art and Apparatus furnished.         Augusta, Dec. 7.

[1] Early Georgia Photographers, 1841 – 1861: a Biographical Checklist, Compiled by E. Lee Eltzroth

Dr. A. Caspari

1843-1844       Address Unknown, Richmond, Virginia.

Dr. A. Caspari was recorded twice in advertisements that appeared the in The New York Herald (New York, New York) on June 1, and ran until September 5, 1843 and on October 17, 1843 to January 26, 1844.  It is unknown if Dr. Caspari is a daguerreotypist, a supplier or just an agent for the Langenheim Brothers.  Philip Haas, Edward White, and Peter Laurens[1] are daguerreotypist, Dr. Caspari and William West are not recorded in other photographic directories that I have access to.

Philadelphia Daguerreotype Establishment.  Exchange Building, Rooms 26 & 27.  The Subscribers, having procured the agency for the sale of Voigtander’s Daguerreotype Apparatus, constructed according to Professor Petzval’s calculation, have on hand a large assortment of these Apparatus, and artists as well as amateurs of their art, wishing to procure a good apparatus, will find it to their advantage to procure instruments of this construction.  They also have lately imported a large quantity of German and French plates, and all the chemicals used in their art, which they warrant in every respect, as they are made to their order.  Polishing substances, and morocco cases, and all necessary materials, are sold on the most reasonable terms.  The following gentlemen have agreed to act as their agents, viz:—                                                                                                                                      E. White, 175 Broadway, N. Y.                                                                                                                              P. Haas, Esq., Washington, D. C.                                                                                                                      Dr. A. Caspari, Richmond, Va.                                                                                                                              P. Laurens, Esq., Savannah, Ga.                                                                                                                  William West, Esq., Cincinnati, Ohio. Added to advertisement on June 22, 1843.

All communications (post paid) and orders, accompanied with remittance, will be promptly attended to, and should be directed to W. & F. Langenheim, Exchange Building, Phila.

The second advertisement ran on  October 17, 1843.  Peter Laurens has been replaced by Samuel Broadbent for the Southern States.  Philadelphia Daguerreotype Establishment.  Exchange Building, Rooms 26 & 27.  The Subscribers, has received a large supply of Voigtander’s celebrated Daguerreotype Apparatus, large and small sizes, with achromatic lenses made according to Professor Petzval’s calculation.

Also a new supply of the best plates and chemicals, which he warrants good and sells at reduced prices.  The following gentlemen have agreed to act as their agents, viz:—                E. White, 175 Broadway, N. Y. P. Haas, Esq., Washington, D. C. Dr. A. Caspari, Richmond, Va.  S. Broadbent, Esq., for the Southern States.  William West, Esq., Cincinnati, Ohio.

All communications (post paid) and orders, accompanied with remittance, will be promptly attended to, and should be directed to William Langenheim, Exchange Building, Phila.

[1] Active in Savannah, Georgia from 1843 until at least 1863.  Early Georgia Photographers, 1841 – 1861: a Biographical Checklist, Compiled by E. Lee Eltzroth.


Robert A Carden

1855                Address Unknown, Alexandria, Virginia.                                                                          1853-1854     293 Broadway, New York, New York.                                                                        1854                369 Broadway, New York, New York.[1]                                                                1855                Address Unknown, Alexandria, Virginia.                                                                  1856                Clay & Kearny Streets, San Francisco, California.[2]                                      1858                Address Unknown, New Orleans, Louisiana.

Based on work done by Peter Palmquist and Thomas Kailbourn in Pioneer Photographers of the Far West A Biographical Dictionary, 1840-1865, Craig’s Daguerreian Registry by John Craig, New York City Directories, and newspaper advertisements and notices in New York City and Washington, D. C.  I’ve put together the following snapshot of Carden’s activity.

Robert A. Carden was not listed in the 1852-1853 New York City Directory, he was listed in the 1853-1854 and 1854-1855 directories as daguerreotypes, 293 Broadway, in 1853-1854 directory his house was listed at 393 Broadway, Carden was not listed in subsequent NYC directories.  In 1853-1854 there was also a listing for Carden & Co, daguerreotypes, at the 293 Broadway.

Carden was recorded on April 13, 1853 in the New York Daily Tribune (New York, New York.)  25 Cent Daguerreotypes.—Carden & Co., No. 293 Broadway, are still taking those superb Pictures at the low price of 25 cents, notwithstanding there are some who advertise 12 ½ cent one to be taken at a future day.  It is a well known fact that a picture cannot be produced for less than 25 cents; hence the great rush every day at Carden & Co.’s.

Craig’s Daguerreian Registry recorded the partnership of Carden & Norton, 369 Broadway from the 1854 Mercantile Directory.

He was recorded in the Daily American Organ (Washington, D. C.) on February 9, 1855 and in the Evening Star (Washington, D. C.) on February 10, 1855.  The Exhibition of the Metropolitan Mechanic’s Institute.—…Contributions from Virginia…Smith Bennett and Robert A. Carden, Frames of beautiful daguerreotypes;

Six months later the following advertisement appears on August 9 & 15, 1855 in the Evening Star (Washington, D. C.)  Daguerrean Gallery For Sale in Alexandria, Va.  One of the best rooms in Alexandria.  Will be sold cheap for cash.  Any person who wants to learn the business will be taught; and also will teach the art of Photograph free.  That alone is worth one hundred dollars to any artist.  Two Artist wanted to color Photographs.  Address “RAC,” Artist, Alexandria, Va.

Pioneer Photographers of the Far West A Biographical Dictionary, 1840-1865, by Peter Palmquist and Thomas Kailbourn.  They mention that Carden is in San Francisco, California in 1856 working for Henry William Bradley at Clay & Kearny Streets.  Also that he wrote two articles for the Photographic and Fine Art Journal on April 1857, p 112 & 113 on Photography in California and was signed R. A. C. the same as the Evening Star advertisement on August 9 & 15, 1855.   In August of 1858 he wrote about the New Orleans Photographic Galleries on pages 244 & 245. Carden is reported in the same issue on page 256 that that he has returned to New York from New Orleans where he showed Ambrotypes and prints taken while he was there.  Was Carden active as a photographer or possibly as an assistant?  Further research is needed.  He was not listed in as being active in Photography in New Orleans The Early Years, 1840-1865, by Margaret Denton Smith and Mary Louise Tucker except to mention the article in The Photographic And Fine Art Journal.

Recorded on November 11, 1859 in the New York Daily Tribune (New York, New York.)  Carden—At Little Falls, Herkimer County, N. Y., on Thursday, Sept. 15, Robert A. Carden, photographic artist, formerly of this city [died], aged 26.

[1] Craig’s Daguerreian Gallery in partnership of Carden & Norton.                                                   [2] Entry for 1856 & 1858 from Pioneer Photographers Of The Far West.


Byron & Bent

1851                155 Atlantic Street, Brooklyn, New York.

Byron & Ben were first recorded in an announcement on May 12, 1851 in The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (Brooklyn, New York.)  Brooklyn Not To Be Outdone.—Byron & Bent, of 155 Atlantic Street, Brooklyn, whose artistic skill as Daguerreotypist, is rapidly gaining for them a distinguished celebrity, determined to keep pace with the New York artists, have, with a laudable enterprise, fitted up a Daguerrian gallery that will vie with any in the modern Gotham.  In point of accuracy of delineation, distinctness of execution and style, the likenesses by Byron & Bent, are as perfect as any we have seen, and superior to many, by artists who have had a longer experience, and hold a high rank in their profession.  We command Messrs. B. & B. to the patronage of their fellow citizens.  Their charges are moderate, and the portraits are permanent, which is not the case with very many of the low priced artists—we mean those who charge 50 cts.  Pay them a visit, and give them a trial; you will be sure to call again!

The following week an advertisement appeared on May 17 and ran until August 22, 1851 in The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (Brooklyn, New York.)  Daguerrian Gallery, (From Meade Brothers,) 155 Atlantic street, Brooklyn.  The great want of a good Daguerrian Gallery, in South Brooklyn, has long been felt, and the subscribers have been induced to fit up the first floor over the splendid store of G. D. Sweetzer, at 155 Atlantic street, as one of the first class; and they can say, without fear of contradiction, that in point of convenience and general capabilities, it is surpassed by none in the States.

The Proprietors will always be on the spot, and guarantee that none but Superior Pictures shall be issued from their establishment.  Ladies and elderly persons will find a great convenience in the gallery and operating room being on the first floor.  Children’s Portraits taken in a few seconds.  Portraits taken at private residences.  A choice assortment of Lockets & c.  Portraits (colored) from $1.00 upwards, Portraits with Locket included,          $2.50.  Byron & Bent.

While Walter C. Byron and Edward Stanley Bent are known and have been recorded in Craig’s Daguerreian Registry the new information is that they worked for the Meade Brothers.