Tag Archives: Ambrotypist

Joseph Hill

1857                Address & Location Unknown, Minnesota.

1858                Drew’s Building, Third Street, St. Paul, Minnesota.

Joseph Hill[1]was recorded in two advertisements.  The first advertisement was recorded on October 31, 1857 in the Falls Evening News (Minneapolis, Minnesota).  Great Excitement At The New Photograph And Ambrotype Gallery!!  Pictures for the Million!  50 taken in one day, and more waiting!  J. Hill & Co., successor to J. H. Kelley invite the Public to examine their specimens of Photographs, colored and plain. Ambrotypes by an entire new process.  Melainotypes, Daguerreotypes and Pictures on patent leather. Having a complete stock of cases, Frames, Lockets, &c., we are now prepared to put up pictures in every form—we also have on hand a few oil paintings for sale cheap.

N.B. Particular attention is invited to the clear and life-like expression of the eye, the rich and beautiful softness of tone, the rare and exquisite finish of both plate and picture, and especially to their permanence.  We wish it distinctly understood that we use none but the very best materials.  Those who have favored us with a call, have expressed the most perfect satisfaction, and that they are in point of delineation, boldness and unerring truthfulness, equaled by few.  J. Hill & Co.  Oct. 21.

The second advertisement was recorded on March 13, 1858 in the Saint Paul Financial, Real Estate and Railroad Advertiser (St. Paul, Minnesota).  New Photograph And Ambrotype Gallery.  Hill, Kelly & Company, Having opened a suit of Rooms in Drew’s Building, on Third Street, (next door to Cathcart’s) are now ready to wait on all who may favor them with a call, and prepared to take all the different styles of pictures now in use, consisting of

Photographs, colored and plain, Ambrotypes, Melainotypes, Daguerreotypes, and Pictures on Patent Leather—all of which are warranted.  Perfect satisfaction will be given, or no charge.

A share of the public patronage is respectfully solicited.  St. Paul, Jan. 25th, 1858.

J. Hill is recorded in Craig’s Daguerreian Registry as being active in St. Paul, Minnesota in 1858-1859 on Third Street between Robert and Minnesota Streets. 


[1] Minnesota History 52/2 Summer 1990, P. 44.

G.C. Hernandez

1859                505 Eighth Avenue, New York, New York.

G.C. Hernandez was recorded in one advertisement that appeared on August 6, 1859 in The New York Herald (New York, New York).  Ambrotypist Wanted.—A Good Operator, At Hernandez’s gallery, 505 68th av., between 40th and 41st sts.  One having an instrument preferred.  Apply between the hours of 8 A. M. and 6 P. M.

G. C. Hernandez is recorded in Craig’s Daguerreian Registry as being active as a daguerreotypist in 1860 at 567 Eighth Avenue, New York, New York.

J. Helion

1855                383 Broadway, New York, New York.

J. Helion was recorded in three advertisements in The New York Herald (New York, New York).  The first advertisement appeared on July 6, 1855.  To Daguerreans—A Rare Chance—To Be Disposed of, on very easy terms, the daguerrean portion of the photographic and daguerrean business, in Broadway.  Apply at the Helion Gallery, 383 Broadway.

The second advertisement ran on October 19 & 20, 1855.  “Which Nobody Can Deny” With Truth.—Photographs on glass, known as ambrotypes, are taken best and cheapest by far at Helion Gallery 383 Broadway.  Strangers, get your likeness in this new style, at 383 Broadway.

The third advertisement ran on October 30 & November 1, 1855.  “Which Nobody Can Deny” With Truth.—Photographs on glass, known as ambrotypes, are taken best and cheapest by far at Helion Gallery 383 Broadway.  Strangers, get your likeness in this new style, at 383 Broadway.

J. Helion is recorded in Craig’s Daguerreian Registry as being active in 1856-1857.

N. F. Hawkins

1855-1856       Rooms over Langley’s Store, Jackson, Mississippi.

1860                Corner Pearl & State Streets, over Langley’s Store, Jackson, Maiiissippi.[1]

N. F. Hawkins was recorded in two advertisements in the Weekly Flag of the Union (Jackson, Mississippi).  The first appeared on January 16, 1856.

New Establishment Over Langley’s Store.  Reflected By Sky Light!!!  Having a very large and newly improved Apparatus, together with our new arrangement of Reflected Sky Light and a determination to excel in our beautiful Art, we are now prepared to execute larger and much finer Pictures than those taken by the old process.

Our Stereoscopic Pictures, (something entirely new,) are pronounced by connoisseurs to be as life like as Pictures can be made.  Give us a call, we guarantee satisfaction or no charge. Hawkins & Co.  Jackson, December 28, 1855.

The second also appeared on January 16, 1856.  Call and see us!!!  If you wish a very superior Miniature, with the most life-like color and expression, call at Hawkins & Co. Gallery, Over Langley’s Store.  Our pictures shall be of the very finest quality and shall give entire satisfaction or no charge.  So call at once, and see for yourselves.  The Ladies especially, are solicited to call.

Prices in accordance with the hard times.

Remember our Rooms are over Langley’s Store, nearly opposite the Capital.  [ ? ]Hawkins & Co.

P. S.  We have just received a [ ? ] large lot of the very finest cases.

N. F. Hawkins is recorded in Craig’s Daguerreian Registry as being active in Jackson, Mississippi in 1860.


[1] Craig’s Daguerreian Registry.

A. J. Hasler

1857                South of Edwards’ Hotel, Plymouth, Indiana.

A. J. Hasler was recorded in one announcement and one advertisements in the Marshall County Democrat (Plymouth, Indiana).  The announcement appeared on April 23, 1857.  For the benefit of our readers in Marshall, we would say that Mr. Hasler, Ambrotype and Melainotype Artist, has located here for a short time; and having seen a number of his pictures, we have no hesitancy in recommending him to the public as one of the best artist that has ever been in our place.  Those wishing a good likeness of themselves or friends cannot do better than to call at his Car, South of Edwards’ Hotel, where he will be pleased to wait on all who may favor him with a call.

The advertisement ran from June 10 to 24, 1858. Ambrotype Car For Sale; nearly new,–Price $125,–can be seen in Rochester, Ind.

Address or apply to A. J. Hasler, Warsaw, Ind., or to G. J. Carbutt, Plymouth, Ind. 

A. J. Hasler is not recorded in other photographic directories.

S. W. Hartshorn

ca.1844-1845  25 Westminster Street, Providence, Rhode Island

1850-1857       25 Westminster Street, Providence, Rohde Island.

1857-1858       81 Westminster Street, Providence, Rhode Island.

1859                98 & 100 Westminster Street, Providence, Rhode Island.[1]

S. W. Hartshorn was recorded in five advertisements, four in the General Advertiser (Providence, Rhode Island) and one in the Providence Journal.  The first advertisement was recorded on March 23, 1850.  Daguerreotypes.  Hartshorn has just finished a suite of Rooms, with a new and improved Sky-Light, in the Hall above the room occupied by him for the last five years, where he is still better prepared to take Daguerreotype Miniatures of every size, single or in groups, in a style not to be surpassed by any.

Grateful for past favors, I respectfully ask a continuance of the same, and invite ladies and gentlemen to visit my rooms at all times, whether intending to sit for a picture or otherwise.  S. W. Hartshorn, Agent, 25 Westminster st.  o6.

The second advertisement was recorded on July 2, 1850 in the Providence Journal (Providence, Rhode Island).  Superior Skylight Daguerreotypes.  S. W. Hartshorn, Agent, and Wm. S. Johnson have associated themselves together in business and respectfully inform their friends and the public generally that the are prepared to take Daguerreotype likenesses in a style not executed by any.

Having the largest rooms, the most extensive apparatus and long experience, with an improved skylight, they are confident that for beauty of finish, distinctness of impression, superior tone, and life-like expression of the eyes, their pictures will compare favorably with any taken elsewhere.

Pictures of all sizes and warranted not to fade taken without regard to weather.  Instruction given and apparatus furnished on reasonable terms.  The Rooms are at No. 25 Westminster st. up stairs, open all hours of the day, and ladies and gentlemen are respectfully invited to call and examine specimens.

N. B. A superior instrument that operates in from one to ten seconds is used for children and others who desire it.  a29.

The third advertisement was recorded on April 30 and June 11 & 18, 1853 in the General Advertiser (Providence, Rhode Island).  Daguerres.—Just received, a further supply of Fancy Cases, for Daguerreotypes, embracing all the desirable styles, both double and single, which I shall be happy to show to my customers, and to place within them a Perfect Likeness, either Crayon or such other as may be preferred.  My assortment of Plain Cases is complete for those who wish a more moderate priced article.  In fact, I have everything pertaining to the business in “good order and well conditioned,” and can always be found at my old stand, No. 25 Westminster-st., ready to supply the wants of those who call on me, pledging myself to furnish as perfect an article as can be obtained anywhere.  S. W. (sic.) Hartshorn, Agent.

The fourth advertisement was recorded on September 15, 1855 in the General Advertiser  (Providence, Rhode Island).  Daguerreotypes.  I have reduced the prices of all kinds of Daguerreotypes to the lowest possible mark, some of them even as low as Twenty-Five Cents!!!

As my rooms are known to be the most extensive and convenient, and having the Largest Sky Light in the State, the best Instruments, and all improvements in the art, I have no hesitation in promising satisfaction to all who may give me their patronage.  Recollect that my number is 25 Westminster-st., and Daguerreotypes may be had for the same number of cents.  J. W. Hartshorn, Agent, 25 Westminster-st.

The fifth advertisement was recorded on January 30, 1858 in the General Advertiser (Providence, Rhode Island).  Removal.  The subscriber informs his friends and the public, that he has removed his Daguerreotype, Photograph and Ambrotype Rooms from his Old Stand, to 81 Westminster-st., where he is prepared to furnish, as heretofore first rate Likenesses, at Moderate Prices.  He respectfully solicits a continuance of the liberal patronage that he has received for the last 12 years.  S. W. Hartshorn, Agent.  my30.

S. W. Hartshorn is recorded in other photographic directories.  The new information is that he was active in Providence as early as 1844-1845.  Please note that only fourteen issues were available for me to look at in the General Advertiser between 1847-1858.  The dates at the end of each advertisements (when noted) are the start dates of the advertisements.


[1] Craig’s Daguerreian Registry.

Leroy Hancock

Pre-1853         Corner Lackawanna & Penn, Honesdale, Pennsylvania.[1]

1854-1860       Near the Depot, Scranton, Pennsylvania.1                 

Leroy Hancock was recorded in one advertisement that appeared on July 25, 1856 in the Pittston Gazette (Pittston, Pennsylvania).  Ambrotypes!  Daguerreotypes, Hylotypes, and the Crayon Pictures, in a superior manner, and of the last styles, taken at Hancock’s Gallery, Scranton, Pa.  N. B.—Always at home.  May 9, 1856.

Leroy Hancock is recorded in Directory Of Pennsylvania Photographers 1839-1900.


[1] Directory Of Pennsylvania Photographers 1839-1900.

J. Winslow Hacker

1856                Address Unknown, Barnstable, Massachusetts.[1]

1856                Address Unknown, Hyannis, Massachusetts.1

1856                Address Unknown, West Dennis, Massachusetts.1

1856                Address Unknown, Chatham, Massachusetts1

1857                Address Unknown, West Barnstable, Massachusetts.1

1857                Address Unknown, Sandwich, Massachusetts.1

1859                Address Unknown, Pike Peak, Colorado.1

J. Winslow Hacker the information below come from nine broadsides in Harvey Zucker’s Collection.  The first has N. D.  Daguerreotypes For One Dollar! Can be had at J. W. Hacker’s Splendid Saloon, For a short time only, as he will remain in town about two weeks, to accommodate those that are in want of a good Daguerreotype.  Having had long experience and constant practice with one of the best operators in the N. E. States, he deems it no arrogance to assert that Pictures taken by him for distinctness of outline, clearness of the eyes, and artistical arrangement of position, which is so indispensable to a really valuable Daguerreotype, contrast favorably with those hard and flat Pictures formerly produced, and which are now so often palmed upon the unsuspecting public.—All that wish to obtain a true likeness of themselves, or friends, are invited to call and examine, for the best guarrantee of the superority of his Pictures is an examination of his work.

Saloon open from 8 A. M. until 5 P. M.

Pictures taken equally as well, either in clear or cloudy weather.

P. S. A large assortment of Gold Lockets and Fancy Cases constantly on hand, and for sale as cheap as can be purchased in Boston.

N. B. This Saloon is located near the Patriot Office.

The second is dated April 1856.  J. W. Hacker, Would, while returning thanks to his friends and the public, inform them that he will remain One Week Longer, To accommodate those that are in want of a Picture Taken by Him.  The best guarantee of the superiority of his work, is an examination of his Pictures.  Please call and compare them with those taken by other operators.

Having just received a good assortment of Gold Lockets and Fancy Cases,

He would invite all that are wishing to purchase Gold Lockets to call and examine his before purchasing elsewhere.

Rooms open from 8 A. M. until 5 P. M.  Small Children, from 10 A. M. until 2 P. M.

P. S.—Pictures taken equally well either in clear or cloudy weather

N. B.—Remember that he closes his Saloon Saturday, May 3d, and will remove to Barnstable 

The third is dated July 25, 1856.  Notice! Notice!  The subscriber, grateful for the liberal patronage he has received, would respectfully inform his friends and the public that he has re-opened his Saloon, and will remain but a short time to accommodate those that are in want of good Pictures.

His work needs no recommendation.  Call and see.  He will take nice pictures which he will warrant to give satisfaction, for the low price on one dollar.

N. B.  Having received a new assortment of Cases of all kinds, he would invite all to call immediately, as his time is limited.

Rooms open from 8 A. M. until 5 P. M.

Small Children from 10 A. M. to 3 P. M.  J. W. Hacker.  Hyannis, July 25th, 1856.

The fourth broadsided is dated September 1856.  Rare Chance To Get Good Pictures!  J. W. Hacker, Would, in returning thanks to his friends and the public for their past liberal patronage, inform them that he will stop Two Weeks At West Dennis, (Near the Meeting House,) to accommodate those who are desirous of obtaining a good Daguerreotype.

He deems it unnecessary to call the attention of the public to the many recommendations which he has received, but would invite them to an examination of his work, which is the best guarantee of the superiority of his Pictures.

P. S.—Remember that he closes his Saloon at West Dennis Sept. 27th.

Saloon open from 8 A. M. until 5 P. M.  Small Children from 10 A. M. until 2 P. M.

A good assortment of Gold Lockets and Fancy Cases on hand.

The fifth broadside is dated November 1856.  One week Only.  J. W. Hacker, Would while returning thanks to his friends and the public for their past liberal patronage, inform them that he will remain One Week longer Only, To Accommodate Those That Are In Want Of Good Pictures.

Surprising art, by which we lend,

Our countenance to an absent friend,

Or at the close of life’s eventful career,

Leave a memento for those we hold dear.

Next Thursday will be Thanksgiving Day,

Some meet for sport and others to pray,

But Hacker will his favorite art pursue,

To save the shadow of the noble crew.

For a holiday gift of all the rest,

A type of yourself is surely the best;

Then hie for Hacker’s Daguerrean Saloon,

And get your Picture in a Case or Locket fine.

Rooms open from 9 A. M., until 4 P. M.

P. S.  Pictures taken equally well either in clear or cloudy weather.

The best guarantee of the superiority of his work, is an examination of his pictures.  N. B.  Remember that he closes his Saloon Saturday the 29th, and moves to Chatham, Monday, December 1st.

The sixth broadside is dated April 1857.  A Good chance To get Pictures taken equally as well as those taken by the best Artist in the city.

J. W. Hacker, Would inform his friends and the public of West Barnstable, that he has located his Saloon Near the Depot, where he will remain Two Weeks Only, to accommodate those that are in want of Pictures taken by him.

Having had long experience and constant practice with one of the best operators in the New England States, he deems it no arrogance to assert that Pictures taken by him for distinctness of outline, clearness of the eyes, and the artistical arrangement of position, which is so indispensable to a really valuable Daguerreotype, contrast favorably with those hard and flat Pictures formerly produced and which are now so often palmed upon the unsuspecting public.

All that wish to obtain a true likeness of themselves or friends are invited to call and examine specimens, for he feels confident that a close examination of his Pictures will satisfy the most incredulous of the superiority of his work.

Perfect satisfaction given or no charge.  Call soon, as he positively closes the 11th of April.

Rooms open from 9 A. M. ‘till 5 P. M.

Pictures taken equally well either in clear or cloudy weather, a good assortment of Fancy Cases & Gold Lockets on hand.

An early call is solicited.

The seventh broadside is dated April 15, 1857.  Hacker Is in Town! With his Splendid Saloon, and will remain Two Weeks Only, to accommodate those that are in want of a good Pictures.—Mr. Hacker would while returning thanks to his friends and the public for their past liberal patronage, inform them that this is positively the last chance to get pictures taken by him, as this is his last stopping place on the Cape.

P. S.  Pictures taken for the low price of 75 cts. And upwards, including case.  His work needs no recommendations; but call and see for yourself.  Perfect satisfaction given or no charge.  An early call is solicited, as his time is limited to two weeks only, closing Thursday, April 30th,

Rooms open from 9 A. M., until 5 P. M.  Pictures taken in clear or cloudy weather.

A good assortment of Fancy Cases & Gold Lockets For sale cheap, as he is selling out.

Sandwich, April 15, 1857.

The eighth broadside is dated April 1859.  Pike’s Peak.  By a letter just received from Kansas I am correctly informed that the best Gold Diggings are on the Cherry Creek, and the best route is by way of Ft. Riley; and up the smokey Hill River.

All who are anxious to go would do well to call and get their Pictures taken as mementoes for their friends.  Mr. Hacker having had eight years experience, and constant practice, with some of the best operators in New England, such as Masury & Silsbee, Ormsby & Ells [sic.] (Ellis) of Boston, and Manchester & Bro., Providence R. I., feels it no arrogance to assert that pictures taken by him, for distinction of outline, depth and purity of tone and artistical arrangement of position which is so indispensible to a really valuable Portrait, cannot be surpassed by any in the States.

Prices—Ambrotypes, Melainotypes, Ferreotypes, Papyrotypes, Ambrotypes, and Patent Leather Pictures, from 25 cents upwards.

Daguerreotypes $1.25, and upwards; Photographs $3.00 and upwards, for first copy.  Duplicates furnished at reduced prices.  Fancy cases and Gold Lockets on hand.

N. B.  Remember, that hacker leaves here the first of May, and will positively close April 30th 1859.

J. Winslow Hacker is not recorded in other photographic directories.  According to the genealogy provide by Harvey.  J. Winslow Hacker learned daguerreotyping from his brother Francis Hacker on Cape Cod.


[1] Broadsides from Harvey Zucker’s collection.

John Gum

1856                Address Unknown, El Dorado, Arkansas.

John Gum was recorded in one advertisement that was recorded on August 23, 1856 in The Democratic Union (El Dorado, Arkansas).  Ambrotypes!  Ambrotypes!  The undersigned begs leave to inform the citizens of this place, and vicinity that he has opened rooms in this place, for the purpose of taking those fine, soft, distinct, and truthful miniatures, called Ambrotypes; which are far better than daguerreotypes, for many reasons, viz:  They can be seen in any light, they are not reversed, they have none of the glare of the old Daguerreotype plate, and they never fade.  Parents may now bring their children with absolute certainty of getting a fine picture, as by this new process pictures are taken almost instantly.  No inferior pictures will go out of the rooms, if left to the judgement of the artist.  All persons wishing this new style of never fading pictures, are requested to call soon, as my stay in this place is limited to a very short time.  Rooms open from eight to five o’clock.  John Gum.  Eldorado, Aug. 8, 1856.

John Gum is not recorded in other photographic directories.  Craig’s Daguerreian Registry does record a J. W. Gunn who was active in New Orleans, Louisiana C. 1850’s exact date unknown.  In Pioneer Photographers from the Mississippi to the Continental Divide A Biographical Dictionary 1839-1865 by Palmquist & Kailbourn record him as being in New Orleans c. 1858, and in Baton Rouge, Louisiana in 1858.  It is unknown if they are the same person at this time.

D. W. Grout

1854                Rooms opposite the Ingersoll Block, Pulaski, New York.

1857                Address Unknown, Pulaski, New York.

1859                Address Unknown, Pulaski, New York.                                                                                

D. W. Grout was recorded in Six advertisements and two announcements in The Pulaski Democrat (Pulaski, New York).  The first advertisement was recorded on July 28, 1853.  Plain and Fancy Harness, which he sells on better terms considering quality, than can be bought in the County, also Bridles, Halters, Trunks, Whips, Lashes, Harness and Carriage Trimmings, Saddlers Silk, and all other articles usually kept in this line of business.

Particular attention paid to repairing, cleaning and oiling harnesses.  Please call before purchasing.  D. W. Grout.  Shop next door to Angell& Seeley’s Store.

The first announcement appeared on January 12, 1854.  We learn that Mr. Tucker has bought the stock of Mr. Grout, harness maker, in this village, the latter retiring from the business.

The second advertisement ran from September 28 to December 28, 1854.  Daguerrean Rooms.  The Subscriber would return thanks to the public for the liberal patronage extended to him since engaging n the Daguerrean business in this place, and hopes for a continuance of the same.  He has just returned from below with a large and choice variety of Beautiful Frames. Morocco, Velvet, Union, Silver plated and Paper Mache Cases, and an Improved Large Sized Instrument which together with the facilities his rooms possess in light and apparatus will enable him to conduct the business to the satisfaction of all.

Pictures of all sizes taken and inserted in Lockets, Pins, Rings, Bracelets or any style of Cases.  Old pictures retaken at a slight expense. Likenesses of sick or deceased persons, taken at their residences if desired, at reasonable prices.

Ladies visiting rooms for a picture, if desiring dark drapery should wear black, red, maroon, yellow, Crimson, dark green or brown.  If desiring light drapery, they should wear white, blue, pink, light green or drab.  Good pictures warranted in all cases.

Rooms opposite the Ingersoll Block, Pulaski.  September 21st. 1854.  D. W. Grout.

The third advertisement ran from October 15 to November 19, 1857.  Ambrotypes, Melainotypes & Daguerreotypes.  D. W. Grout, Having re-opened his Rooms and arranged things in taking order, will be found on hand at all times ready to wait on those wishing a first-class picture of themselves, family or friends, in any of the modern styles.

Children’s pictures taken in from 1 to 3 seconds between the hours of 10 A. M.to 2 P. M. only

Old pictures copied and improved.  Ambrotypes of residences or other out-door views made to order.  Always on hand a splendid assortment of cases and frames of every style.  Particular attention called to his gilt and plain frames for wall pictures. 

N. B.—20 per cent discount to parties or families of 5 or over.  Those desiring rich dark drapery should avoid in dress an excess of white, pink or light blue.

Rooms openfrom8 A. M.to 5 P.M. and pictures made at all times without regard to weather. 

Satisfaction given in all cases and charges reasonable.  D. W. Grout.

The fourth advertisement ran from January 6 to February 17, 1859.  “Not for a day, but for all time.”  Do you know you can get one of Gout’s superb double glass pictures for 4 shillings at the same price you pay for a worthless imitation?

Having just returned from New York with an assortment of cases comprising over one hundred different styles, sizes and patterns, varying in prices , with pictures, from four shilling to $5.

I would solicit a continuation of the patronage heretofore so liberally bestowed, feeling confident that I can suit the most fastidious, bout in pictures and settings. 

N.B.  Operators supplied with stock of all kinds.  D. W. Grout.  Pulaski, Oct. 14, 1858.

The fifth advertisement ran from January 6 to December 28, 1859.  D. W. Grout, Daguerrean Artists, Pulaski, N. Y.  Lockets, Cases, Frames, &c. of all styles, always on hand. Pictures unsurpassed.

The sixth advertisement ran from March 10 to December 29, 1859.  Pictures!  Pictures! The Subscriber has just received an addition to his stock, which comprises all the Latest Styles Of Cases, and everything pertaining to the Picture trade. By keeping posted in all the improvements in the art, I am enabled to give my patrons the benefit of any Real Improvements that may be made, having three different sizes of Quick Working Cameras.

Perfect Pictures in every known Style, Variety, and Size can be made on short notice, and with a beauty of tone and sharpness of outline unsurpassed.

N. B.  The subscriber does not propose to e undersold by anything in this vicinity.

Artists materials and stock of all kinds at New York prices.

For sale, a daguerrean Car—will be sold for half its value. D. W. Grout.

The second announcement appeared on April 28, 1859.  New Office.—We understand that Chas. H. Cross, Esq., will immediately commence the erection of a new brick office, on the present site of Grout’s Daguerrean Saloon, which will soon occupy the second story of the new structure.

D. W. Grout is not recorded in other photographic directories.  Craig’s Daguerreian Registry does list a D. W. Gront who was active in Pulaski and Richland, New York in 1859.  They are probably the same person.